This is a very good point and one that the masses will have to figure out for themselves. They are to easily lead by popular media and the ad dollars that fund it. Our own recent governors primary race is a very good example. Both sides were ripe with corruption charges. I tend to think that both sides were actually telling the truth about the other, but people still voted for only those two as if that was the only choice.
I worry too that as a 3rd party gains it also can get co-opted by those same forces. I would like to see the federal government stop the subsidies to either of the two major parties so that they would be on an equal footing with other 3rd parties (plus I don't like paying for their follies). Of course, then corporate monies would become the new subsidy and the "politician for hire" mentality that has supplanted our democratic processes would simply increase. As I've said before, I have many questions and few answers, but it is nice to see such a discussion.
Mmmmm....Yes but so many people have learned that the fed.gov uses a dictionary for such terms other than Webster's. Perhaps their dictionary was codified by Attila the Hun?
We should (and I stress should) strive to achieve a tax code that is not predicated on the concept of indentured servitude.
Yes I am aware that the Fair Tax would tax services. It would tax just about everything except pre-owned goods. The APT could be accomplished through rather simple computer coding and reporting only from the financial institutions. The Fair Tax would require that retailers and service providers be the tax collector and reporter. I don't like collecting taxes, sales, payroll or otherwise. I'm certainly not getting paid to do so.
Again, as stated, only 5 states do not have some type of sales tax. If, as you previously suggested, the IRS would send their storm troopers into businesses, why havent the indiviual states been doing so? They have just as much riding on revenue as does the federal government.
I put "voluntary" in quotes because the income tax is certainly not voluntary in the conventional sense of the word. It is "voluntary" in the sense that people pay it with only random sample monitoring by the IRS. This works because each tax return provides information about others.
BTW, the Fair Tax would tax quite a few services currently not sales taxed in most states.
"The Fair Tax would be a cut for the working poor and the ultra rich. The upper middle class and the somewhat rich would be clobbered. "
I view it as hitting sectors of the economy. I've studied the Fair Tax and believe my family would be better off under the system. However, I also believe that the retail sector (the sale of new manufactured items), would be hit the most.
"But that's not the worse part. The Fair Tax would not be a "voluntary" system in the sense that the income tax is."
How is the income tax voluntary?
"A sales tax lacks this double entry effect. As a result, the government would need no-knock access to all businesses in order to perform spot audits."
We have a sales tax right now (in Texas). State auditors have yet to knock on my door to audit my books. As a matter of fact, every state I have ever lived in has had a sales tax. As the "administrator" of the facilities at which I have worked, if there was ever an audit it would have been me handling the situation. That has never occurred in the 20 years I have been in my industry.
"This is the case now for state sales taxes, which are by comparison trivial. You think the IRS goons are bad, wait till you see the sales tax police in action."
I file my state sales tax annually. It isn't an issue. However, the APT would not require any reporting by entities that provided goods and services. That pleasure would be laid upon the banks. If I deposit checks or cash.....it would be taxed. If I had electronic deposits (which is my primary souce), it would be taxed. In all cases it would be the bank (or merchant services) that deducted the tax and forwarded on to the appropriate entity (fed, state or local).
So, if anyone got audited.....it would be the banks and transaction vendors. I don't have a problem with that. They are part of the financial infrastructure and the beneficiaries of hundreds of billions in bailout dollars. Let them eat cake.
The Fair Tax would be a cut for the working poor and the ultra rich. The upper middle class and the somewhat rich would be clobbered. But that's not the worse part. The Fair Tax would not be a "voluntary" system in the sense that the income tax is. The income tax works because we report on each other. My employer's deduction is my paycheck. A sales tax lacks this double entry effect. As a result, the government would need no-knock access to all businesses in order to perform spot audits. This is the case now for state sales taxes, which are by comparison trivial. You think the IRS goons are bad, wait till you see the sales tax police in action.
The transaction tax would also not work as advertised. The tremendous number of trades we see today are due to the low transaction costs. Bump up the costs and the activity drops precipitously. We're talking serious Laffer Curve action.
As usual, Kevin rather effortlessly manages to touch upon the sticking point in the morass that constitutes the concept of third party legitimacy. That point of course being that everyone wants to cook the candy bar to their favorite recipe and a pox on anyone who should so much as suggest it might taste better with nougat in it. Might I respectfully suggest that if we quit acting like children who have to have everything to our exact specification, we might actually be capable of accomplishing something here? This election sits at the nexus of what might well be looked back upon as an historic reclamation of our country's very soul . . . if we, and I mean the type of "we" here that would be defined as an all encompassing roar heard coast to coast, can actually put aside our petty little personal preferences and take our self centered blinders off long enough to look at what our country needs and then gather up the intestinal fortitude to commit to and actually follow through with whatever is necessary to place this treasured land of ours back on a steady, honest keel. For something such as this to work would require our fellow citizens to, for once, go into the polls with nothing more on their agenda than to do that which is best for our land; not for the purpose of bettering their bottom line or enriching their favorite political party. If we are finally fed up (nationwide) to the point where it's "too late to fix it and too soon to shoot the bastards" then the third party that the country truly needs will build itself on the ashes of all that came before it. That, I believe, is the point that Kevin is trying to make . . . without, of course, insulting the tender sensibilities of those who are really quite fond of their overpriced, designer blinders...
Oh, and as for the taxes, they'll sort themselves out only after all the rest of this is done. There's just too much lucre in there for any of our current brand of politicos to step forth and do anything noble about it.
Dave
"The reality is that Libertarians will have no significant impact on tax policy until voters can no longer accept the looting of the wallets. "
Until enough people from either party get fed up with feeding the monster I can't see serious consideration by the machine that controls our dollars and our lives adopting anything like this that would benefit the middle. I could be wrong and hope I am, but I want to see more competition of ideas and we are long over-due a fresh paradigm.
I'm less concerned with party affiliation then I am with more competition for ideas. I think sites like these serve a valuable purpose to creating what the founding fathers thought was so important to all of us. A market place of ideas.
That was a great article at just the right time. A group from the local Republocrat came to me saying that our candidate would syphon off their votes.
I pointed out that they were coopting Libertarian votes by trying to hyjack the Tea Pertiers and the quest of small government.
I wish I had read your article first - I would have been more polite and elequent.
Fred
I truly hope this is not an epitaph for our society, nor the end of a "work in progress" as Alexis de Tocqueville put it mid 19th century. Let us hope we can turn the tide of corpocracy in our country and reset the clock before it is too late. Sadly greed as a prime motivator leads many would be patriots to seek shelter and cower from this challenge. We see this from the lowest elected levels on HOA boards and small city councils, all the way up to the white house. We must continue to confront the special interest usurpation of our constitution with the help of many in our current government.
Hopefully Mr. Tunstall can be one of those influences that works to save the republic from a government vendor feeding mentality. We can always hope!
IF WE DO NOT TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY THIS YEAR WE WILL HAVE NO COUNTRY. WE SEE THE HITLER OF NATIONAL SOCIALISM IN THE WHITE HOUSE. WILL WE DO NOTHING UNTIL AFTER HIS HOLOCAUST, OR WILL WE ACT NOW? WE NEED LEADERS WHO WILL SAY WHEN AND WE WILL MARCH WITH ARMS IF NEEDED.
GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH.
"It appears that we are being led down the same path of destruction. We are being asked to “bail out” those who could not simply say no to bad business decisions be they banks, or individuals. Those of us who constrain our spending practices are being forced to prop up those entities that are unwilling to follow suit. "
This is the crux of the problem Kevin. While one party attempts to socialize human service industries the other attempts government take-overs in the financial section while waving the flag of free markets, which they never established in the first place (their real hidden goal being corpocracy). Over the past 2 decades we have seen exponential growth in government sponsored corporate and industrial monopolies. Much of it taking our taxes and jobs over seas. It is a very bitter pill to swallow!
I like it. We are being sold to the highest bidder and have been for at least the past 50 years. The power and greed of men is astonishing. It is as if they have lied to others and themselves for so long now that they actually believe there own bullshit.
I also think the threat to sell the ports to the UAE was a "wag the dog" thing to get the nation more afraid of terrorist threats so that Big Brother can justify there wanting to spy on us for "our security". It is high time we as people come together; quit trying to keep up with the Jones's and get back to the basics, before we find ourselves enslaved. It is time someone who actually gives a damn about this country and what is best for our future gets into positions of power and get these greedy bastards out.
Did you all see the continued nationalization of banking proposed by Paulson today? How can these people even pretend to call themselves conservatives?
"Our children and grandchildren will be damn lucky if they are not reduced to wage-slave chattel, existing at the whim of corporate overlords. Corporatism is fascism. We exist in what can only be described as Mussolini’s wet dream—soften at your discretion. "
It is amazing how history constantly repeats itself within a fairly short span of time. I couldn't agree more!
Corporatism and our over involvement by the neocons of our government by the special interest is one of the gravest threats to our republics future. Already we've seen the level the current administration is willing to go to support these large Wall Street firms at the taxpayers expense. All the while screaming and pointing fingers at the other side and calling them socialist, while they are perpetrating the largest nationalization in our nations history. Sometimes this pill is very hard to swallow.
I have read this article and I agree with everything. I do have a lot of comments however, so I am going to piece it all together and get back with it all. Basically I stick to my original declaritive:
I read this from another site and thought I would comment here. I don't know much about the Libertarian beliefs, but perhaps Americans are getting a little tired of the domination and ready for other alternatives
This is a very good point and one that the masses will have to figure out for themselves. They are to easily lead by popular media and the ad dollars that fund it. Our own recent governors primary race is a very good example. Both sides were ripe with corruption charges. I tend to think that both sides were actually telling the truth about the other, but people still voted for only those two as if that was the only choice.
I worry too that as a 3rd party gains it also can get co-opted by those same forces. I would like to see the federal government stop the subsidies to either of the two major parties so that they would be on an equal footing with other 3rd parties (plus I don't like paying for their follies). Of course, then corporate monies would become the new subsidy and the "politician for hire" mentality that has supplanted our democratic processes would simply increase. As I've said before, I have many questions and few answers, but it is nice to see such a discussion.
Mmmmm....Yes but so many people have learned that the fed.gov uses a dictionary for such terms other than Webster's. Perhaps their dictionary was codified by Attila the Hun?
We should (and I stress should) strive to achieve a tax code that is not predicated on the concept of indentured servitude.
Yes I am aware that the Fair Tax would tax services. It would tax just about everything except pre-owned goods. The APT could be accomplished through rather simple computer coding and reporting only from the financial institutions. The Fair Tax would require that retailers and service providers be the tax collector and reporter. I don't like collecting taxes, sales, payroll or otherwise. I'm certainly not getting paid to do so.
Again, as stated, only 5 states do not have some type of sales tax. If, as you previously suggested, the IRS would send their storm troopers into businesses, why havent the indiviual states been doing so? They have just as much riding on revenue as does the federal government.
I put "voluntary" in quotes because the income tax is certainly not voluntary in the conventional sense of the word. It is "voluntary" in the sense that people pay it with only random sample monitoring by the IRS. This works because each tax return provides information about others.
BTW, the Fair Tax would tax quite a few services currently not sales taxed in most states.
"The Fair Tax would be a cut for the working poor and the ultra rich. The upper middle class and the somewhat rich would be clobbered. "
I view it as hitting sectors of the economy. I've studied the Fair Tax and believe my family would be better off under the system. However, I also believe that the retail sector (the sale of new manufactured items), would be hit the most.
"But that's not the worse part. The Fair Tax would not be a "voluntary" system in the sense that the income tax is."
How is the income tax voluntary?
"A sales tax lacks this double entry effect. As a result, the government would need no-knock access to all businesses in order to perform spot audits."
We have a sales tax right now (in Texas). State auditors have yet to knock on my door to audit my books. As a matter of fact, every state I have ever lived in has had a sales tax. As the "administrator" of the facilities at which I have worked, if there was ever an audit it would have been me handling the situation. That has never occurred in the 20 years I have been in my industry.
"This is the case now for state sales taxes, which are by comparison trivial. You think the IRS goons are bad, wait till you see the sales tax police in action."
I file my state sales tax annually. It isn't an issue. However, the APT would not require any reporting by entities that provided goods and services. That pleasure would be laid upon the banks. If I deposit checks or cash.....it would be taxed. If I had electronic deposits (which is my primary souce), it would be taxed. In all cases it would be the bank (or merchant services) that deducted the tax and forwarded on to the appropriate entity (fed, state or local).
So, if anyone got audited.....it would be the banks and transaction vendors. I don't have a problem with that. They are part of the financial infrastructure and the beneficiaries of hundreds of billions in bailout dollars. Let them eat cake.
The Fair Tax would be a cut for the working poor and the ultra rich. The upper middle class and the somewhat rich would be clobbered. But that's not the worse part. The Fair Tax would not be a "voluntary" system in the sense that the income tax is. The income tax works because we report on each other. My employer's deduction is my paycheck. A sales tax lacks this double entry effect. As a result, the government would need no-knock access to all businesses in order to perform spot audits. This is the case now for state sales taxes, which are by comparison trivial. You think the IRS goons are bad, wait till you see the sales tax police in action.
The transaction tax would also not work as advertised. The tremendous number of trades we see today are due to the low transaction costs. Bump up the costs and the activity drops precipitously. We're talking serious Laffer Curve action.
--Carl M.
As usual, Kevin rather effortlessly manages to touch upon the sticking point in the morass that constitutes the concept of third party legitimacy. That point of course being that everyone wants to cook the candy bar to their favorite recipe and a pox on anyone who should so much as suggest it might taste better with nougat in it. Might I respectfully suggest that if we quit acting like children who have to have everything to our exact specification, we might actually be capable of accomplishing something here? This election sits at the nexus of what might well be looked back upon as an historic reclamation of our country's very soul . . . if we, and I mean the type of "we" here that would be defined as an all encompassing roar heard coast to coast, can actually put aside our petty little personal preferences and take our self centered blinders off long enough to look at what our country needs and then gather up the intestinal fortitude to commit to and actually follow through with whatever is necessary to place this treasured land of ours back on a steady, honest keel. For something such as this to work would require our fellow citizens to, for once, go into the polls with nothing more on their agenda than to do that which is best for our land; not for the purpose of bettering their bottom line or enriching their favorite political party. If we are finally fed up (nationwide) to the point where it's "too late to fix it and too soon to shoot the bastards" then the third party that the country truly needs will build itself on the ashes of all that came before it. That, I believe, is the point that Kevin is trying to make . . . without, of course, insulting the tender sensibilities of those who are really quite fond of their overpriced, designer blinders...
Oh, and as for the taxes, they'll sort themselves out only after all the rest of this is done. There's just too much lucre in there for any of our current brand of politicos to step forth and do anything noble about it.
Dave
"The reality is that Libertarians will have no significant impact on tax policy until voters can no longer accept the looting of the wallets. "
Until enough people from either party get fed up with feeding the monster I can't see serious consideration by the machine that controls our dollars and our lives adopting anything like this that would benefit the middle. I could be wrong and hope I am, but I want to see more competition of ideas and we are long over-due a fresh paradigm.
Maybe someday we can find a big enough government vendor to buy back our government. Na, that wouldn't work. Other vendors would get jealous.
Kevin,
Right on target!
I'm less concerned with party affiliation then I am with more competition for ideas. I think sites like these serve a valuable purpose to creating what the founding fathers thought was so important to all of us. A market place of ideas.
That was a great article at just the right time. A group from the local Republocrat came to me saying that our candidate would syphon off their votes.
I pointed out that they were coopting Libertarian votes by trying to hyjack the Tea Pertiers and the quest of small government.
I wish I had read your article first - I would have been more polite and elequent.
Fred
I truly hope this is not an epitaph for our society, nor the end of a "work in progress" as Alexis de Tocqueville put it mid 19th century. Let us hope we can turn the tide of corpocracy in our country and reset the clock before it is too late. Sadly greed as a prime motivator leads many would be patriots to seek shelter and cower from this challenge. We see this from the lowest elected levels on HOA boards and small city councils, all the way up to the white house. We must continue to confront the special interest usurpation of our constitution with the help of many in our current government.
Hopefully Mr. Tunstall can be one of those influences that works to save the republic from a government vendor feeding mentality. We can always hope!
Right on ...
No, I have not written anything lately. However, I am working on a new piece that should be released next week.
Now that the election is over, I have been able to turn my attention back to my family and my company. I am grateful for that.
My next piece will be dealing with "perception."
If you would like to be updated when my next piece is published, simply sign up for the notifications on the right hand menu.
Has this site been updated lately?
IF WE DO NOT TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY THIS YEAR WE WILL HAVE NO COUNTRY. WE SEE THE HITLER OF NATIONAL SOCIALISM IN THE WHITE HOUSE. WILL WE DO NOTHING UNTIL AFTER HIS HOLOCAUST, OR WILL WE ACT NOW? WE NEED LEADERS WHO WILL SAY WHEN AND WE WILL MARCH WITH ARMS IF NEEDED.
GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH.
"It appears that we are being led down the same path of destruction. We are being asked to “bail out” those who could not simply say no to bad business decisions be they banks, or individuals. Those of us who constrain our spending practices are being forced to prop up those entities that are unwilling to follow suit. "
This is the crux of the problem Kevin. While one party attempts to socialize human service industries the other attempts government take-overs in the financial section while waving the flag of free markets, which they never established in the first place (their real hidden goal being corpocracy). Over the past 2 decades we have seen exponential growth in government sponsored corporate and industrial monopolies. Much of it taking our taxes and jobs over seas. It is a very bitter pill to swallow!
Great information! I'll be bookmarking this site for future reference!
Steven Wevodau
I like it. We are being sold to the highest bidder and have been for at least the past 50 years. The power and greed of men is astonishing. It is as if they have lied to others and themselves for so long now that they actually believe there own bullshit.
I also think the threat to sell the ports to the UAE was a "wag the dog" thing to get the nation more afraid of terrorist threats so that Big Brother can justify there wanting to spy on us for "our security". It is high time we as people come together; quit trying to keep up with the Jones's and get back to the basics, before we find ourselves enslaved. It is time someone who actually gives a damn about this country and what is best for our future gets into positions of power and get these greedy bastards out.
Just caught this article linked on fortbendnow.com. Very interesting.
Did you all see the continued nationalization of banking proposed by Paulson today? How can these people even pretend to call themselves conservatives?
"Our children and grandchildren will be damn lucky if they are not reduced to wage-slave chattel, existing at the whim of corporate overlords. Corporatism is fascism. We exist in what can only be described as Mussolini’s wet dream—soften at your discretion. "
It is amazing how history constantly repeats itself within a fairly short span of time. I couldn't agree more!
Corporatism and our over involvement by the neocons of our government by the special interest is one of the gravest threats to our republics future. Already we've seen the level the current administration is willing to go to support these large Wall Street firms at the taxpayers expense. All the while screaming and pointing fingers at the other side and calling them socialist, while they are perpetrating the largest nationalization in our nations history. Sometimes this pill is very hard to swallow.
I have read this article and I agree with everything. I do have a lot of comments however, so I am going to piece it all together and get back with it all. Basically I stick to my original declaritive:
WE ARE SCREWED!
Get back with my comments soon
I read this from another site and thought I would comment here. I don't know much about the Libertarian beliefs, but perhaps Americans are getting a little tired of the domination and ready for other alternatives